Sara A. Lewis: Welcome to Points South Live from 21c Museum Hotel in Bentonville. Um, thank you all for being here. It's really great to see so many faces. This is actually the OA’s first event in two years. So it is really nice… to have something in person and to be out here with everybody. My name is Sara A. Lewis. I am the host of the podcast Points South and the executive director of the Oxford American, which is a nonprofit organization dedicated to exploring the complexity and vitality of the South. We recognize that our region is often mired in stereotype and underrepresented in media. And so we tell stories to remedy that. A great way to support the Oxford American and the work that we do is to become a subscriber. Visit Oxfordamerican.org/subscribe to start receiving the magazine of great Southern writing. Tonight, though, we are not here to read good stories. We're here to listen to good music and to have some good conversation, which is quite lovely to do in person. I'm extremely thrilled to welcome Tyrah Jackson to this stage. Yeah! you don't even know all of her accolades yet. Tyrah is a student of anthropology and criminology at the University of Arkansas, where she is on the pre-law track. She is the spokesperson for the Black Student Caucus at U of A and served on the diversity equity and inclusion committee for the U of A library system. I can tell you firsthand that she is an inspiring activist and an ambassador for countless worthy causes. So thank you for being here, Tyrah. And joining Tyrah, we welcome Oluwatobi Adewumi. His art focuses on the sociocultural subject of Black Americans through multimedia drawings. His work explores his personal journey of having been born in Nigeria, then moving and assimilating into American culture in conservative Arkansas. His practice engages in "a critical commentary of the past to learn and unlearn how history shapes our understanding of the present and in turn impacts our perception of the future." He says, "I represent in my work, the expressions of the often overlooked faces of our Black African immigrants across the diaspora." Welcome Tobi.
Oluwatobi Adewumi: Thank you for having me.
SAL: So I will leave Tyrah and Tobi to talk about art.
Tyrah Jackson: Just start off to say, thank you guys again for being here. And Tobi, can you just start off by saying your name one more time and your profession?
OA: Okay. I'm Oluwatobi Adewumi. I'm a visual artist and it's nice to be here and nice to see all the beautiful faces.
TJ: And could you just start off by telling us what got you into art? And a redundant question: what made you want to use Black folks as your, as your medium?
OA: Ooh, that's a long story.
TJ: We got time.
OA: Okay. So… My childhood was, uh, shaped with, uh, a lot of history and growing up in Nigeria where you grow up with, um, with less. So I turn it to my energy most times towards reading books and doing kind of comic-like drawings. So I kind of process that to lettering, process that, to doing, um, sketches. So I'm a self-taught artist. I studied computer science though I never used it, I never worked with it. So it kind of grew from being a hobby and studying history and it kind of became what I do right now. So...
TJ: And how did you make art, your, um, full, how did you make your passion, your full job? Was that back when you were in Nigeria or after you came here to Arkansas?
OA: Yeah, it is been my full job back when I was in Nigeria, but, um... The transition is, uh, how am I gonna say the transition is, especially for a self taught artist is, is kind of tough for you to go in that terrain or that the art world is a very fun and crazy place. So you get a lot of, "no”s, you.. Growing up, I, my, my art practice was built with a lot of trial and errors. Like, okay, I I'll do like several work from all painting to pastel painting to charcoal to photography. Back in Nigeria, what I was exposed to was artists like Rembrandt. So studying those artists, you see the narration of where they go with their paintings and if you go into museums or in Nigeria, and even when I was in New York, you never see a full representation of Black people, which is my race. So this history is kind of closed up. I'm moving to the, to the U.S. - Arkansas. The race card kind of like get flagged in my face, like, okay, this is what you are. So there's nothing, there's nobody that can tell my story, my history, than myself. So I have to use the one, number, one tool that I have, which is art, to tell that story and my experiences with art.
TJ: And since being here, have you found, or since you've, you know, become comfortable as an artist, and this is your full time thing, have you found a particular style that most represents you or that you like to use the most?
OA: Yeah. I kind of, I'm more tuned to using faces for my picture, and for my work, rather than anything, in there is about, about portraits. But so it, it kind of become my strength while I was, while I started. Cause I kind of built on it and I felt this was my strongest, uh, suits to pursue my style.
TJ: There's a particular piece and actually a lot of the ones that you, when you have, uh, Black women, you depict stripes or lines going down their face. And when like that, for example, that, and so when I first saw it, it automatically made me think of the stripes on the American flag. What was your take behind those?
OA: So, the body of work was about Black women in the US. And I was like, oh, you know, the Black race is always, uh, the Black female body was kind of looked at in a way, so like a product. So that was why I came up with stripes on the face to mark a depiction on them, like the society give them. So...
TJ: And that seems like that's something that's really passionate to you because a lot of your artwork is Black women. Can you tell me why that is?
OA: The way that society is built, you can never take, even if they're not Black women, you can never take a woman out of the society. They hold it down. Like, you know, when a building has a strong foundation, if you want to like make the society crumble, remove the woman out of the equation and you see it crumble. But coming up where I grew up, uh, in history, women are like talk in some ways or given the kind of definition, but they all, they hold a powerful spot and they contribute a lot to the family value and all that. So I, I kind of wanna like talk about it and like showcase more light on what they do and their contributions and all that.
TJ: Malcolm X does say that, um, a mother is the first teacher of the child. If you take the mother out of the home then you've taken all types of structure out of the home. Um, and so when, when Black women see your artwork, do you want them to understand that there is power within themselves?
OA: So I did a work called Headlines that kind of battered all these lines. It's a strong Black woman looking straight at you. Like you get it, like looking at you like, oh, this is like straight looking at me. Like I kind of want them to feel... oh, I get a part of me, looks like, like, this is me in a sense. Beautiful with the hair, like all wrapped around. And you could see that a face is telling you something that you just connect with. Yeah.
TJ: And I did feel like that because a lot in your artwork, you do show traditional Black features in traditional Black hair, 4c type hair and features that a lot of the times have been, um, stereotyped in the media. And so that's what drawn me to your art. And then there's actually a particular piece. We talked about Idia, which is my favorite.
OA: Yeah. That work you're talking about, it was a picture of a sculpture that was taken away… I think in the seventies or in the sixties, in Nigeria, it was taken away by the British government. They took it, they took some, some, a lot of sculptures from Nigerian museum. They took it to UK and it has never been back. So Nigeria has over 250 cultural groups or ethnic groups. So the man that did the sculpture was never mentioned. So it is like the British Museum kind of canceled whoever did this, it wasn't mentioned. And so to me, it was like a note and a time where the rage or the things that belong to certain peoples should remain with these certain people that owns it. Cause up until now, nobody talks about it, but they returned some lately, but they never return that piece. So it is like, if you look at the history of the Black folks, you see a lot of misrepresentation, a lot of information that uh, we're told, but nobody's talking about it.
TJ: Later on, we're gonna get some music by, uh, Buffalo. And that's something that I felt between.. That connected between your art and his music is that you see the roots of Blackness. In like the similarities from drums and beat and rhythm and, um, Africa and how it transitioned over here to America. And it's been the root of art as we know it, food as we know it and music as we know it. And so, final question before we move on, what is the name of the art you have on display here at 21c?
OA: It's on the third floor, it's the Headline series and he has the three art works.
TJ: Thank you so much, Tobi. Think it's time to move on to some music.
SAL: Thank y’all so much. And I'm excited to have everybody in conversation after we get to hear a few songs. I'm so thrilled to welcome to the stage Buffalo Nichols. He's a guitarist, songwriter and singer, and he's the first blues solo artist signed by Fat Possum records in 20 years. While acknowledging the joy, exuberance and triumph contained in the blues, Nichols looks intently at the genre's origins, which harken back to complicated and dire circumstances for Black Americans. So here to play a few songs and join in the discussion, please welcome Buffalo Nichols.
Buffalo Nichols: [“Lost and Lonesome”] Here’s another song I wrote called “How To Love.” [“How To Love”] Thank you so much.
TJ: Now we'll have some questions for Buffalo Nichols, or Carl. We'll call him Carl. And, um, and have a conversation between us three. So, first question is my own personal question. How did you come up with Buffalo Nichols? How often do you get that question?
BN: Uh, everyday. It came from like a fascination with Buffalo Soldiers. And my grandfather was in a all Black infantry in the Korean war and, and they were called the Buffalo Soldiers and yeah, it was kind of a tribute to him, but also like the power of the, the imagery for me, like Buffalo meant, you know, a lot of things.
TJ: The second question is, you had said in an interview Black stories aren't being told responsibly anymore. Will you explain what you mean by that and who, when you say being told responsibly, by whom?
BN: I was referring to the idea of where this particular music comes from, which is really older than the music industry, but the music comes really from Black people singing to and about Black people. And once you remove that and you have, you know, predominantly white artists doing it, trying to, you know, participate in that tradition, then you're singing someone else's story. You're singing about Black people to white people as a white person. And I think a lot of stereotypes and a lot of sort of harmful cliches get sort of recycled and brought up a lot with certain blues artists. And, and I felt like, you know, all I can really do is try to balance the scales by, you know, writing more songs to give people an option. They don't have to listen to that. You know, if they don’t want to.
TJ: I love all music. But when I first heard your music, I had this impression of the Black man singing white music. And then I had to sit with myself and I heard my grandmother - she's passed away, but I heard her in my ear like, no, this is a Black man singing Black music. That's been, you know, prominent today, that's predominantly taken over by white people. You know, it took me less than 10 minutes to kind of have a realization and realize that, you know, I was conditioned to think that first thought, but how often do you encounter folks who, you know, have this misconception and how often do you encounter that from our own people?
BN: All the time. I think I was even one of those people. I discovered the music, you know, through recordings. So I didn't know a lot of the baggage that goes along with it until I started going to concerts and trying to like be a part of the industry side of it. And I realized, okay, maybe this is not a place for me. And I should do, you know, just go where it's gonna be easier or I'll be a little bit more comfortable. But then I felt, you know, I don't want someone else to have to go through that. I want, you know, even if it takes 20, 30 years, I want, you know, young, Black kids to be able to realize that this part of their culture still is something they can be a part of.
TJ: And I feel like the, both of you are doing that, obviously both in an artistic way, in different disciplines, but trying to explore the roots of it and, you know, understand that what we know as culture today in America is based off of Black culture or the African diaspora. I have this understanding that all music with a drum, a beat and a rhythm are inherently Black music. But how often do you get white fans here in the South who approach you saying this reminds them of like mountain music or the country music they, that they grew up with? Do you do this purposefully to have a wider audience? And how does that make you feel?
BN: I get stuff like that sometimes, but that's because I spent a lot of time playing sort of bluegrass and country music. So there's a little bit that comes out in, in my music, but more so I sort of get the reaction of like, you know, people being surprised that I played this music because I'm,I'm from the Midwest. And you know, that kind of upsets me because you know, the story of the blues is Black people... For a lot of it, at least the modern electric blues, and a big part of the history is Black people leaving the South and going to the Midwest. I mean, that's the story of most Black people in the Midwest. So the music comes from a certain place, but it really belongs to a certain people. That's the way I feel about it.
TJ: It's very interesting cause that's how Tobi's perspective is, Black migration. We think of Black Southerners, Black Northerners of being two different types of culture, but it is the same culture that's just traveled hundreds of thousands of miles. Do you have any particular artists that inspired your work? Any Black country artists? That’s not Skip James?
BN: No one in particular. I feel strongly about Skip James music, but you know, every time I hear music, it influences me in a certain way, but I'm not really trying to imitate anyone.
TJ: And how did you find your sound? You said you were listening to it when you were young.
BN: It was just a matter of playing. I just played a lot of different styles and I kept at it and I got to a point where I had enough of a vocabulary to sort of do my own thing.
TJ: And this might be a redundant question, but would you say you're singing just straight up blues?
BN: Uh, no. I'm not a traditionalist, you know, I, I have been that and I appreciate and respect the tradition and I've learned it. I think in order for the music to continue to be relevant it has to sort of grow with the culture and we can't treat it as a separate part of our culture. We have to sort of accept that it's our history, but also see the connection, you know?
TJ: Cause black people are not a monolith. And so a question for you both, do you feel like you have a forum where you can kind of go and express this art, this style, getting back to the roots of Black culture? Like for example, Afro-punk, even though that's not, you know, that's not blues and that's not the art that you do Tobi, but do you guys feel like you have a forum to express that?
BN: I think we probably both get opportunities to, to say what we feel about things, but I think sometimes there's too much pressure on us as the artist to explain a lot of these things because you're never really gonna get, you know, the curators who work with governments to steal art from Africa. And you're not gonna be able to talk to the record labels who push Black people out of the industry. You know, you can only really talk to us and we can talk and talk about it, but we really don't have that much power in this equation. So I feel like whatever forum we get, it's limited.
TJ: Same for you, Tobi?
OA: Yep. The art world is a crazy place.and you have to work as much as you can to get attention. And you have to really do something crazy, really crazy to get noticed. But it's kind of like he said, they're not gonna look at you and there's a limited... you don't have that power or that resources to really do it unless you get the little bit of, uh, this spotlight you can work in.
TJ: when I was coming up with these questions, uh, it reminded me of Solange’s A Seat at the Table. There's one interlude with Master P. I hope y'all know who Master P is. And he, you don't know who Master P is? Oh, okay. You do. Okay. And he says, um, "If you don't understand my record, you don't understand me. So this is not for you." And so it was supposed to be for us by, by us, there's a clothing line called FUBU. Do you feel that same way about your art?
BN: I think, you know, like I talked about before the, the history of this music is inherently for us by us. I think some of it is by choice. And some of it is out of necessity. Like until these other audiences figure out a way to sort of be a part of it or make money off of it, they don't really want anything to do with it. I didn't sign a record contract to exclude people, you know? So there is this commercial aspect of my music that I want it to be for everybody, but I'm also approaching it from a cultural aspect where I want, I want people, you know, who are of this certain - have a certain background to, to be a part of this, cause we've been left out of it.
TJ: What about you Tobi?
OA: I have a different approach to what he said. Well, when it comes to my arts practice, I'm very protective. I'm very stubborn at the same time. And I kind of use my piece, apart from the commercial value, I'll make you look at it. You can’t, you can’t look at my piece and walk by. You, you get what I mean? I make it so obvious in your face. This is my people. I look at it and you're not gonna walk by. No, you have to look at it and it's gonna stare at you. So it, I don't know you, everybody's not gonna like it. I take that, but you're gonna look at it. And that's just the way I deal with that.
TJ: That was a little powerful. It's hard towing that line, isn't it? Of wanting to, to be frank, get the white gaze and maintain the white gaze, but also have Black people be the forefront of your art or be the, the whole, you know, purpose of your art, of what you're trying to convey. Does that make sense?
BN: Yeah, it’s complicated. And part of my musical journey started with me going out and seeing the difference between what I thought it was and what it actually is, which means, you know, growing up as a kid and hearing, you know, Son House and Skip James and Robert Johnson, and then going to venues where I see blues on the marquee and seeing nothing but white people... From that age, I started to ask myself like, why? Because I'm from Milwaukee, it's one of the most segregated cities in America. Right? So from an early age, we understand these things don't just happen by accident. Like we are here because you wanted us here, you put us here. So whenever I walk into an all white space, I don't just think it's a coincidence. There's always a certain amount of violence that goes into this kind of segregation. Like there's a reason why the racial makeup of any given room is the way it is. And I say it and it turns a lot of people away and I don't ever expect to make a lot of money off of music. So I think it gives me a little bit more freedom. This long way of saying I'm aware of this and I will continue to speak out against it. I don't really care what the consequences are, but I also know that I have to make a living as an artist. So I can't totally reject it. You know what I mean?
TJ: Thanks for saying it in the long way. What about you Tobi?
OA: I think I feel the same way too.
TJ: I think that's it. Yeah. As far as question wise, if you'll give us one more song.
BN: I'm not gonna do a Buffalo Nichols song. I think I'm just gonna do a Charley Patton song, on the topic of tradition and culture. [“Oh Death”] Thank you so much.
SAL: All right. Thank you everyone. Can I get another round of applause for Tyrah, Tobi, and Buffalo Nichols? That was awesome. I also wanna give a big shout out to Black-owned NWA, who was a tremendous champion, uh, for this event tonight and helped get the word out. Um, yeah, they're great. The Oxford American is all about exploring the complexity and vitality of the South and I think that you can see tonight in our conversation and in our art artists that they embody both of those things. So we are happy to be just a small part in their stories as they continue on in their careers. Oxford American is committed to doing free community programming like this, with the podcast, with events. We send free issues to underserved high schools, colleges, and incarcerated readers, and we offer free online access to decades of writing, but we can't do that without your support. So please consider making a donation to the Oxford American literary project via Oxfordamerican.org/donate. A very special thanks to 21c Museum Hotel Bentonville, in this one place you get to engage with some of the most exciting contemporary art, culture, and Southern foodways. Danny Baskin in particular made tonight possible. And we look forward to visiting 21c's in both Nashville and Durham later this year for more live podcast taping. Thank you so much for coming to this event. It's really wonderful to see you out and I hope to see you again soon. Y'all have a great night!
SAL [VO]: This event was produced with support from the National Endowment for the Arts and 21c Bentonville Museum and Hotel. The episode was produced by me and Christian Brown. Special thanks to Danny Baskin, our participants, and guests. You can help keep events like these free by making a contribution at OxfordAmerican.org/donate.